The non- Equality between women and men

Hi!!

I would like to know first what do you think about that. (though it is a very big subject actually). And what is the ortodox church in lebanon doing to counteract this problematic, at least in the ortodox families if not in the whole society. Because the problem is also economic, political and social and this is not easy to affect in Lebanon.

What are the youth movement of the ortodox church and it's members taking for responsability in this topic?

Hi Caroline and welcome to this family...

first i visit the ur web-site , but i didn't navigate in it (just the first page), it sems u are a person of great experiance in the christan internet "press".

u talk about non equality betwene women and men, i have to say that the degreeof the problem especially in the christan sosciety is decreasing rapidly as i see and i don't u have another opinion...
but in the church life it still stable even a lot of progress is done becasue we have to change rules not only act changing rules (dkhoul al mar2a ila alhaikal) and the presence of the chmamasate is an important point to show the role of the women in the iklirous life...

but i still want from u to se a living exemple of how women are unequal to men... cause maby me as a man can't see it deeply as women can...

Hi Michel and thank you for welcoming me...

my web-site is relatively new and there is only the first page to see, because I didn't wrote anything else. But people can make comments. And navigate to the link if so wishes.

Ya, maybe the problem is decreasing because people can't stay living in the same old way when the world is developping, many times into better- anyway in a small scale maybe. Here I don't mean that we christians have to "developp"ourselves in line with everything New in the world. No!! But we can not shut one’s eyes from seeying the fact that the world also have good things to offer: Human rights, women rights, and children's right. Because God is really everywhere and not in our church only, and these rights is a good example for that.

If I understood ur last meaning well, so I can say that I really know what does it mean to be a women living in Lebanon. But maybe I didn't do any researches there in this subject, neither I have had time to read more about it. Though I have studied this subject for more then one year at the university.

I agree also that men in generall can't see the problem so deeply as women themselves, otherwise they will be the first who work to counteract the problem, especially as Christians. I hope you can understand me anyway if you feel that I am little bit hard in my words. But I beleive also that there is christian ortodox men working to couteract these problems. But we need more!!

Hello Caroline,

Welcome to the forum.

Do you mean in Church, in Family, at work, all of them?
Can you give some examples

Rgds
Rami

hi and thank you Rami,

Do you mean this one about the ability of men to understand deeply then women the problem of non-equality?

No, i am asking about the title of the topic.

My first questions was about what the ortodox church and the youth movement doing to counteract the problem.

Otherwise I am interrested in the problem with all its aspects, but most in the ortodox church if I have to choose focus.

The social life of christian people is a big part of their life. So i want also to say that we all in the church with the leader of it have responsability to make changes in peoples life. That will be possible when we make women and men conscious about the problem and it's consequences. Many women and men are already conscious about that in the church I beleive.

Many times women are also internalizing thought that make them subordinate to men.

hi,
i think that the response or solution we are giving to the problem is simply in our life. and the way we teach...
i don't think that ever a girl have felt that in youth movement she's unequal to man...
i think the youth movement passed the problem ad solved by the way it live....

Ya, that's maybe true. But the problem extend to Ortodox Christians who aren't from the movement, who are in some way outside. And I don't beleive that there is no problem of non-equality in at least this area of the church's body.

Because these problems is everywhere. Even here in Sweden where I live, and where many people beleive that everything is VERY GOOD, and there is equality and everything, there is almost only 15% of couples who, for exemple, who really share every responsability, both at home, with children, and for earning money. And I guess that this is a very clear exemple for things not beeing as good as they have to be even in one of the most developped country in the world.

With all economic, politic, social, psykologicaland/or spiritual problems that people may have in Lebanon, how would equality be possible if we compare with the statistics of sweden. So I am talking logicaly about the existense of the problem though I don't have statistics in this moment about how it may be in Lebanon.

But I beive also that, especially in married couple relations, the case is more difficult but that deppend on the couple's maturity, psykologi, personality and age etc.. But if one are really and honestly folowing Jesus, both as man and as woman, so it will be easyier to live equal. But life in Lebanon don't make it easyier for people and that brings problems to the couple and if the women for some reason is beeing oppressed by her husband and his behaviour, or ill-treated psykologically or physically, so in the christian vew that's not good for her development, for her psykological health, for her spiritual life and for her as human beeing who have human rights.

So I think that even many christian people in the ortodox church have problems relating to men's beleiving in their power more then beleiving in God. And I think that this depend also on age and aducation many times.

Anyway I am trying to have some time to read a book written by Kosti Bandali, Al-mar2a fi mawqi3iha wa-murtagaha. But I remembered now that I have another book written by Maha Fakhouri from our church, and it is an impirical researche about women in 3akkaar in Lebanon with statistics. And some other books about women... But it takes time to read them all... to know more..

well caroline u can find this problem in all the middle east and even every where else and that's a very old problem!
nowadays it's becoming a little better but it needs more time.
as micho said in MJO we don't feel it coz we are all equal in everything thanks god
u can find it more in poor villages and uneducated and illeterate families and in the muslim society (it's not fanatism but it exists in their religion)
i don't know if i answered anyhow but if u found that i'm very far from the subjct plz correct me
peace

It have been existing in our religion also, and stil exist, here and there in the churches.

I beleive in what u r saying that u don't feel it in the movement, I maybe beleive more in the movement. But it's not the case that every ordodox church in lebanon, in the meadle east or in the whole world are like your movement. And that this concern all of us.

And the case of other Christian ortodox in Lebanon that I wrote about above, who maybe are less educated. Are they living equal. Is there any problems of oppression between these people, of violonce etc.. didn't this concern us also??

i want to add a point , the non equality is present in some of 3aka2ed from many fathers : the big example is : "doukhoul al mar2a ila alhaykal"????????????
this example , in my opinion, shows the worst non equality...
7atta bel theology????

Lallous, this is "canon" not a theology neither a dogm.

Good guys for more discussuion in this topic!

I really agree with you Elias. I don't see any problem with if the women want to enter the haykal even if she will be priest also.

The case is allso that the non eqaulity may be not only in the teologi, but still exist more or less in many fathers thinking, preaching and the way they talk with girls/women or their attitude towards them.

and this may be oppressing women without the knowledge of the fathers. The fathers may have more fear if women in generall will live their sexuality. Because this have allways, both in the church and in the old western ideas, been seen dangerous. Because cinse the old filosofi of greek which affected the western society a lot and ours also the women have been described as chaos and men as order, women as darkness and men as light, men as rational, women as irrational, men as active, women as passiv who can't take responsability.

These ideas exist in the church also as a rest of the old ones. Not so clearly sometimes but maybe more implicitly other times. The worst thing is that women as I say before they internalize this ideas and make them their own. Bandali wrote about the internalizing of women of this oppressing ideas also. (independently of my idea of the church).

So this big fear of women's chaos, irratioanlity and sexuality in the same time may make the fathers hard towards women more than men. So the fathers may use their power in a wrong way I think when teaching women. I am not against them having power, but if u have power and you are teaching in a church so it's dangerous, you have to know more how to teach pedagogiacally.

I will give u ONE exemple of that. Here in Sweden you have to study at least 3 years at the university in a special program to be preschool teacher of this it is one and a half year pedagogic to learn the way of teaching. And when you are studying teacher program all the years you study are charactarized with this pedagogical way and not only the one and a half year. So you can not teach if you don't have a special education for beeing teacher. The teacher program at the university from 3 years (for teaching very small children) to 5,5 years for bac, terminal only. Whom of the fathers have been going through such an education, I mean theologi with pedagogic in these cases??? That's a big question. I don't think we have that in Lebanon not even in schools. OR maybe I am wrong. Tell me, you know maybe more. But cause I love the church and everyone in it and cause I love God so I see it my responsability to question this. That's not funy I know, but I have to, and you too.

So when the fathers are scared of if the women will live as they want so they press on them even more because they don't always have the pedagogical way to convice her or him also, also about other things not only sexuality. So I think this can be oppressing many times and this will loose its point even if these women and men follow every singel thing the priest have been saying. Because I am still beleiving that we can never teach about God and his LOVE if we don't have a good pedagogical way to do that. And to press or oppress only to make women (or men) obey is not effective in my idea and will go against the wish of The Holy Spirit. And maybe will give more psycological complexity in the psyke of women and men.

That's my opinion. I am saying that to build not to destroy I hope you understand that. and that you take what I am saying seriously and think and dsicuss this in the forum.

Please, it's better that you take your time and discuss more seriously later than u answer fast and very short.

I am not declaring that I am who have the truth and know all the truth, no. But maybe I have some part of it, that's what I beleive. So that's only an opinion, my opinion.
And thanks for reading and sharing your ideas with me. I wish to read the girls opinion also.