trinity

hi guys
fi 7ada yechra7le mawdou3 l thalouth(trinity)?
plz ma ta3toune maraji3 ta 2e2raa:study: coz ma ma3e wa2et:(

so iza 7ada bye2dar ye7kine chi 3an l mawdou3 bi kill tafasilo bkoun mamnoune:)
thanks

peace

HI JANA!!
it's a complexe subject where no one can talk about it!!!
that's what i think!!
take it! or leave it!!
no other option
it's comparable to a lot of question where no one can answer:
does god exist?
how God was found!!
is god ebile to create a rock that he can't move? (do u remenber this Rami)!

sorry is God "able" not "ebile"!!
and i want to say more if trinity is complexe, and just one more question what does mean God is one!!!

Jana,
you might know it. But they used to give us an example to approximate the idea of trinity. this example is the Sun. The sun is the block, the heat and the light. but it's the sun.

Mich, shou 3am twa22e3na . we say God is one to deny polytheism. because God is a noncount Person. you can't count God hahah. God is one = "La Ilah illa Al Lah" (7elweh hay).

i am not anyone that can talk about this subject, but i have faith that god is a trinity,
what does this mean, we dont have three gods but we have one, 3 persons one god "ileh wahid fi thaletha akanim" if i was asked to explain what does this mean i say no idea ,
i kow that the father exists as a person (2ouknoum) he is the creator, evrything, the things we see and we dont, he is the father, father because he has a son, jesus chrsit, HIM as well existed with god before the ages of ages (fi albad2 kena alkalima wakena alkalima 3inda allah wkena alkalimatou allah) again (fi albad khalaka allah alsamawet wal2ar "takwin 1:1")
the holy spirit is NOT the spirit of god in the human understanding of spirit HE is the third person of the trinity whom we call god too, he is given by the father to us through jesus chrsit, he is not the creator but he is the action in creation.
we have to understand that evry action taken by god is a trinity action "3amal thalouthi" take any action in the new testement:

1- the visit of arc-angel micheal to st marry: "alrouh alkoudous youzallilouki (the holy spirit) wakoudrat al3ali touzallilouki (the father) lizelika almawlod minki (jesus) youd3a kouddous allah, its a trinity action,
2- kiyemat li3azar "wanazara yasou3 ila fawk wkal ashkourouka ye abati li2annaka sami3ta li wana 2a3lamou anaka tasma3ou li fi koull hin (dual conversation father son)
3- baptisim ...
4- tajalli
5- resurraction
5- crossification.... ext
i just wanna add to that that every person has his own identity and action ("al2eb le yadinou ahad bal 2a3ta an takoun aldaynouna lil2ibn" "koul man you2m biyesou3 bil2ibn yahklous waman lam you2min youden la2annahou lam you2min bi2ism ibn allah alwahid" "ma ra2ani fakad ra2a al2eb"
"le 2ahad ya2ti 2ila el2eb illa bi", "inni ara alsamawet maftouha wibn allah jelis 3an yamin alkoudra" all these sentences in the bible makes us understand what is the trinity and why the holy spirit is one person of the trinity ad not the spirit of god.
jesus said "2oursilou lakoum mou3azi ekhar" rouh alhakk allazi mi 3ind al2eb yanbasik, then the holy spirit is "mou3azzi EKHAR like jesus the first mou3azi, thus he is god himself, "koullou khati2atin toughfar lakoum 2illa altajdif 3ala alrouh alkoudous, li2anna ma jaddafa 3alayhi jaddafa 3ala alla nafsouh"

god bless

mish i wanna answer your question "is god elligable to create a rock tha doesn move" by another question:

can god force you to chose his way?
the answer is NOOOOOOOOO, you chose the way thogh u are created by him, eventhogh he said "2inni ashe2 anna alkoul yakhlousou, it remains a choice for u, and also, everything is possible for god, "alghayr moustata3 3ind alnes moustata3 3ind allah"

if you want to understand more the trinity i wont ask u to read just look to the holy trinity icon, the history behind the notation one god is that before in when god created the man and then man became sinfull and los his way to god, he started to search for his lost god, then he found manythings he thought it is god like the sun the wind the moon ..... but god did not want for his creature to get lost, he declared himself to man through the prophet "ana houwa" "wakallama alrab mousa" he could not tell someone beleiving in many gods that he is a trinity for man wont beleive and will loose the way again thus he said "le 2ileha ghayri" "alrab 2ilehaka wa2iyeh wahdahou ta3boud" though he showed abraham the true picture by visitng him in his bed and figting with him and they were three man, he showed him that he is a trinity, but this trinity has one opinion one decision, one action, evry person of the holy trinity has his own presence and existance but they are in a strong link such that they are one in the human understanding. you cant understand the trinity by mid but by faith and you have to be enlightened by the holy spirit, alla y2addirna wiya3tina bariktou hatta nifham"

Micho, une fois tu as expliqué ca à un muslman devant moi, c'était excellent, peux tu répéter?

Voici ma contribution:

Dans le crédo (doustour el2imen) on dit:
Je crois en "un seul Dieu Père tout Puissant"....
et "en un seul Seigneur Jésus Christ...."
et "en l'esprit Saint....."

Le seul Dieu est le Père. Il a engendré avt tout les siècles une Personne comme Lui (consubstentiel) pour ca il est appelé son fils. et comme il est comme lui il est Dieu aussi.
Il a procédé de lui une autre personne l'Esprit Saint.

Jesus nous a dit qu'il est dans le Pere et le Pere en lui, comme une lumière dans une lumière...
Pour cela ces 3 personnes ne forment qu'un seul Dieu, car seul Dieu est la source de la divinité.
Comme l'Homme, il est formé de reins, de coeurs, de sentiments...
et chacun a son rôle, mais tous participent à toute action, et tous forment un seul corps.

On comprend de la trinité autant que Jesus nous L'a révélée.
on ne comprend pas que ce qu'il nous a pas révélé.

et toi Jana, tu L'expliques comment?

for me i can't explain it nor understand it so all i can say about the "trinity" is that i believe in it because jesus talked about it and revealed it (so i accepted it by faith)
but everytime i come to think of it i feel like "3am harte2" for example: jesus said that god is one in three persons(akanim) and they are equal(moutasawi fil jawhar) when i think of it i find that they are not equal coz God father is greater than the son (ama zalika lyawm wa tilka l sa3a fa la ya3lamou biha a7ad la fi l sama2 wala 3ala l ard wala l mala2ika wala 7atta l 2eben) if they are equal they must all have the same infos! and the son is different from the father(al2ab la youdinou a7adan bal 2a3ta an takouna l daynounata lil iben) if they are equal they must have the same power! and the holy spirit is greater than the father and the son(koullou khati2aten toughfar lakm illa l tajdif 3ala l rou7 l kodos)! another thing if there is a father and a son this means that one is created before the other and also one has created the other!etc...
ya rabbou our7am
i know that "3am harte2" alla yseme7ne bass l mante2 biwaddina la hon w aktar so kermel hek faddalet ma erja3 lal mante2 bass 2e2bala metel ma hye bil 2imen.
ana tara7et hal mawdou3 kermel iza ija 7ada mich masi7e sa2alne hal sou2al 2a3ref chou jewbo li2anno ma ra7 ykoun mou2men wala ra7 ye2bal chi hek bala tefsir!!!
sem7oune iza dallalet 7ada bi afkare
pray for me
peace

ce ne sont pas des hérésies mais des reflexions Jana.
Concernant les 3 personnes, ce n'est pas Jesus qui a dit ca, on a utilisé ces mots plus tard pour répondre aux hérésies de l'époque.
même "consubstentiel" (moutasawi fi Eljwhar) c'était ajouté par AThanasios au 4eme siècle.
Le père est la source de la divinité, pour cela on dit par ordre "au nom du père et du fils et du St Esprit".
koullou khati2aten toughfar lakm illa l tajdif 3ala l rou7 l kodos)!
La il parlait apres un miracle pour dire qu' on peut voir l'oeuvre de l'Esprit Saint et si on nie cela, alors ce n'est plus possible de croire à autre chose. car sinon, on sait que Dieu efface n'importe quel pêcher.
Si tu veux, on pourra poster chaque verset à part et esssayer de répondre.
pour un non croyant, on peut lui donner l'exemple du soleil ou du corps humain....

si tu peux m'expliquer chaque verset rami ca serait parfait

mmmmm
halla2 do3ot 3al 2ekhir

lech jana??
2oulili wen ma mechi 7alo ,et je t'explique l'idee!

hi elias

do3ot li2anno billi inta katabto byenfaham inno fi 3 2aliha mich wa7ad aw fi ilah wa7ad lli houe l 2ab wel ba2we moul7a2in fi!!!
فهو الذي ينعم ازلياً بطبيعته الالهية على الابن والروح القدس
fi wahad khala2 l tene (se3eta ya l tene battal 2ilah aw sar fi 2ilahayn) w talla3 minno l rou7 l kodos(kamen sar l rou7 mich ilah but rou7 l ileh ye3ne metel ma l insen 3ndo rou7)!

chefet leh do3ot

jana, alla ma khala2 el2ibin "al2ibin mawloud gheir makhlouk" min al2eb kabl aldouhour,
nihna min2oul 2ileh wehid li2annou koull 3amal 2ilehi fi woujoud lil thelouth alkoudouss, u cant find something done by the father only, or the son only or the holy spirit only. they are three different persons "moutameyizin" "thaleth akanim kill wahad 3indou moumayizet khassa fi, almasih ma 2ilou bideyi wala nehiyi "ana houwa al2alef wal ye2" "man ra2ani fakad ra2a al2eb" "fi albad2 kena alkalima wakena alkalima 3ind allah wkena alkalima allah". nihna mindi3 becaue we think as if god is on the earth, a human, this is not the case "allah khala2 alzaman" bass 3amaliyit alkhalk hiya 3amaliya "thelouhiya" almasih kharij alzaman thats y he doesn have a start point, there is no time where jesus did not exist. elias ma 2al shi ghalat, la2innou elmasih azali wil rouh elkoudous azali, "mawloud min al2eb kabla koull aldouhour" nihna bass hadan yit3amad min2oul "antoum allazin bilmasih 2i3tamadtoum almasih kad labistoum" bass bimafhoumna lal ma3moudiyeh nihna mnekhoud elrouh elkoudous, fa iza 3am tifhami 3layi, bass tkhdi elrouh elkoudous bitkouni 3am tekhdi allah, "2eb w2ibn wrouh koudous"
wradan 3ala jimltik "alrouh alkoudous a3zam la2anna altajdif 3ala rouh alkoudous le youghfar" lezim elwahad ifham innou ma3na eltajdif 3ala alrouh alkoudous yi3ni innik tinkri alla mish innik tsibbi elrouh. hatta tkouni 2edra tjaddfi 3al rouh elkoudous bitkouni khsirti elrouh 2lli khadti bilma3moudiyeh yi3ni, nkarti alla mishen hek hiya khati2a le toughfar.
the father did not create the so, but he gave him birth and that was before the start of time, before he decided to create the skies and earth and wind and light, there is a time we call it in math and physics time zero t0, before that time there was nothing, "wakena rouh allah yourafrifou fawka almiyeh" "wakala allah liyakoun nour fakena nour" this is a trinity job, because who is god talking to if there is no one but him (the father) genesis 1:6 (takwin 1:6) wakal allah "LINASNA3 al2insen 3ala SOURATINA WA MITHELINA" "let US", in here allah ma 3am bifakhim bi halou wyihki bisighit al jam3 bass ma yihki ma3 el2ibn wal rouh. this is why in the human body scientists and fathers distinguish between 3 main parts "the mind, the heart, and the soul" in arabic we say alnafis wal kalib wal zihin, alnafis is not alrouh, alrouh is composed of two things alnafas wal zihin, read calistos wair his last book i forfot what the book name is,

i dont wanna go further if u have any questions please ask we will try our best to answer

hi Rami,
i don't remenber the scene u said!!!
and for all, i think this discussion can't lead to anything....
cause before:
what does mean equal?
what does mean jawhar?
what does mean God?

and the most important thing is after all we are trying to explain scientifically God, Jesus told us....
no one know what above only the one who came form above" (tarjameh mich mazbouta bass ye3neh )

here as i said before i beleive because the evangile said so...
" kanisat allah alati iftadaha bidameh (jesus = God)
" al rou7 alazi min aleb yanbasik (we explain it rou7 = God)
the term " = " is not accepted for me but it better way to explain...
we can discuss a lot in a lot of idea but we can't discuss in:

- presence of God.
- the nature of God.
- what exist haven. and so so so

all this are a problem of faith not of discussion....
take it or leave it......

Take it or leave it mmm

But As Abouna Mkhayil (Debes) always say: the faith in this 3aka2id affect radically our life (asdeh bi2assir 3a 7ayetna jazriyan).

What does it matter if God is a trinity or not. It's simple.

My hypothese that: we know about God from what he told us about himself, or he revealed to us.

And what he reveal to us is to change radically our life.
For example: why God the Almighty chose to born in such a humble place with animals... we can say that he wants to unify himself with the poor so that "Everything we did with his little brother is as if we do it to him". so that changes Radically the way of people think about poor people to the extent that some saint (You7anna el Ra7oum) called them his Masters (asyadouna).

So what can I learn from God being a trinity.
We learn that a man can't live alone in a separation from others (physically, mentally, spiritually...).
God is always showing us the best way to live and to be satisfied. so in order to ameliorate our life we should learn from the trinity "sharikeh".
and this "sharikeh" is the "sharikeh" of love where each individual has it's role in the creation of beauty.
The trinity 3akideh should destroy in humans prejudices in their mind about the Idea of idol God: The selfish ,dictator, egocentric creature.... The trinity picture shows us God as an endless stream of love an endless care for others.
It makes you feel alive.
As Bash once refer to the icon of trinity. It's so beautiful and expressive.

So I take it Mich, and it's changing my life.

Nice reply Fouf.
Micho, ok pr Take it, mais ce qu'il m'a révélé il faut que je le sache.
Ce qu'on dit dans le crédo est très expressif et loin des complications théologiques qui sont venues après pour défendre la foi.

"Nour min nour, ilèh hak min ilèh hak" very expressive expression donnée par l'évangile.
il faut comprendre logiquement la différence entre makhlou2 et mawlood, mais comment mawlood, la "take it" car Il ne me l'a pas révélé.

Il faut comprendre logiquement et intellectuellement ce que veut dire "Insan kamil" et "ilèh kamel", et qu'il ne sont pas ni mélangés ni séparés mais quelle relation qui unit les 2, la "Take it" car Il ne m'a pas donné la réponse.

Lam tafhamou ba3ed, man ra2ani fakad ra2a el2eb"

jana ,
je pense que l'idee est claire maintenant apres laes postes men el chabeb??
aw la2?? did u get the answer about that u have asked on my post??

hi all
well ur right and as i said before it's a matter of faith it's not logical and can't be . i'll never be able t understand with my narraow mind the reality of GOD!
i guess ma ra7 ba2a es2al chi 3an hal mawdou3 coz ma 3am be2dir efhamo wala ra7 2e2dir efhamo coz iza ra7 dall 2es2al kill marra ra7 yetla3le sou2al jdid w ma b3oud bokhlas
so thank u all for trying to clear it up but i realized that "who am i to question god?"
as for the non believers i'll just tell them: "it's a matter of faith" and give them the example of the sun
take care all of u

peace

AS fOUAD SAY: IT'S BETTER NOW TO ASK HOW IT AFFECT OUR LIFE AND HOW THIS FAITH WILL CHANGE MY LIFE, IN EVRY POINT, IN EVRY SWECOND AND MOMENT......

miyeh bel miyeh mich