abortion

hey guys, what is ur opinions about the abortion(al ijhad):
in its different cases.
let's begin discussions....
is there any case that allow the abortion??
est ce que l'embryon est un etre vivant??
peut on le tuer a n'importe quel instant dans les 9 mois?

go review the essay we did last semsester and ull know the answers
abortion should be allowed when the baby endangers his mother's life and when he suffers from a certain disease that can be discovered early in the pregnancy
in my opinion , if they see that he is abnormal they should let the mother decide whether she wants 2 keep him or not , coz i think it would be a punishment and a living hell for all the family to raise such a kid within them.

what about the grace of god marie???????????? we all know even science agree that once there is a joint between the spermatozoid and the ovul e; then there is a soul; after two weeks of pragnancy it is legaly a baby!!! he has the soul; god gave it to him. let me ask you a question; when you get married nshalla you will; and you will be in such a condition, hope you wont "alla la y2addir" when you decide to aborte arent you killing a soul???????? and if the baby had to survive and you didnt commit abottion, would you forget the grace of god??? "le haza akhta2 wale abaweh bal likay tazhar a3m el allah fih"" this is so simple our mission on earth is to get ready for the after life; such a born is already ready, his life on earth will be just a time split between him and god, why do u wanna take his life away? whats the difference if u kill someone now or you kill him in his mothers stomac

well what you are saying is true , but its just way more than i can take , u might say that i am selfish but i dont see it this way , if god gave us the possibility to detect early any deformation , then we must use it .
u may not agree of what i am saying but i beleive that this is so unfair to ask the mother and the whole family to take that burden and to raise an abnormal kid , this would put a huge stress on the family and would make their life so miserable 7atta biydoun ma yi7esso
do u feel its fair to impose that on many people ? i dont see it fair at all , hayda ba3ed ma 7kina 3an 7ayeto la hal walad l déformé addeich ra7 tkoun sa3bi khssousii bi balad mitil baladna mich m7addar la 2ilo!
i know what i am saying doesnt make any sense 2 u , but it kinda does to me , and i pray 2 god that no one should sufefr from such a condition

HI MARIEJULLIETTE,
sorry but i don't agree with u.

it's very dangerous to say that if the person have abnormalities we must kill him. why?
1- it's like ur searching for a totally complete human, it's as we are living in sparta.
do u know sparta.
in sparta, they were unable to accept abnormalites, because they think they are usefull for the society, so they kill them.
the major goal in spartian society was to create a complete man(physically an mentally) and a complete society.
this point of vue is not acceptable, because christanity say that i must love the person whatever his abnormalities are, and abnormalities are not just physical but also mental.
do u accept killing a maniac person who love to kill children, it's a physic abnormalities and maby there is no way to fix the problem of this person but christanity refuse to kill him. even that this psychic abnormality is more dangerous.

2- how can we judje abnormalities?
is being blind is an abnormality ? or beging unable to walk? do u have a list for abnormalities that we must kill the person for it, and which we must not?

3- my brother have an abnormality and u know him. the doctor after his birth tell my dady that: he can leave him to die or make for him a operation....
do u imagine saying to my brother if i know u have this abnormality i will kill u before ur birth?

4- it's not true that the parent will suffer more from an abnormal baby. ur job as a parent is to suffer for ur babies. God suffered because of our abnormalities, and he was not wrong i think, even that it was easier for him to kill us all and finish "hal waj3et el Rass"

5- have u ever asked a mother or a father for an abnormal baby if they prefered to kill him then to suffer for him?

I know u dont agree with me as so many people dont but i will reply to ur post point by point:
1-akid i know sparta and how they trained their boys to be the best warriors ever
if ur asking iza bwefe2 3al 2i3dem my answer is yes definitley li2ano ana ma b2emin bil sajin l mou2abad , he took a life , his life should be taken away from him and he should not be granted the gift of life
2-akid mich défaut physic , ana assdi iza chi déformation congénitale mitil chi marad mouzmen bi albou aw bi rwéyi aw hek ichya w kamen l trisomie ( ya3ni l mongoliens) ya3ni things that make life impossible 4 the baby born
3-akid la2 bas i dont consider that he has an abnormality(in my point of vue) , w ba3dein when they do abortion ,u dont know him yet so u didnt bond with him ( i know mich ktir la7 ye3jbak hal chi)
4-inta ilta god suffered w ni7na only humans! maybe people can suffer that situation but i just cant . allah la yejarreb 7adan
5- no mich se2li hadan hek!

ekher chi i wanna ask u , if the baby is danger on his mother's life , do u approve then of abortion?

1- o.k for the first point cause if u beleive in i3dem, we must talk before on the i3dem. cause person who don't beleive in i3dam will not beleive in abortion becaue it's the same (theorically). here we must open another subject.
2- here i ask u. do u ahve a list. who make this list. i know a lot of trisomic person who are living very good and there parents and society are accepting this, i know a girl which have one ri2a and she's so normal. what is the criteria u must have criteria to discuus maby u are right, maby u are wrong but without having a criteria ur opignion is missing something.
3- is it acceptable to kill a person if i don't know him? even that he is in his mother body but he still a person.
4- it's hard to have a abnormal child, but at the same hardnes is to have a normal child that i don't have money to feed. (or u thing poor people must not have children). it's same dificult to have a child then suddenly at 5 years he made an accident and become abnormal, do i kill him, or here because i know him i can't kill him?

eff walla sa33abta 3layyi!
i never thought of all those stuff u just said and the way u said them
khallina njéwib méthodiquement :
1-ok open that subject and we will discuss it!
2-I dont know what exactly should be the criteria but since u r askin , khallina n2oul ino l baby ma3o marad ktir ktir sa3eb w badou yet3azab iza khele2 , aw mitil ma sa2altak w ma jewabetni ino iza l baby biychakkel khatar 3a 7ayet immo ,. would u sacrifice her life to save him? ( knowingthat she might have other kids 2 take care of , or law 7atta ma 3enda , if she stayed alive she can have more babies)
3-i didnt say acceptable i just told u that u dont know him ya3ni mich ra7 tet2athar ktir add ma kinit t2atharet law bta3refo
4-tout est relatif , l sa3eb 3endi moumken yikoun hayyen bil nissbi la ghayri wil 3akkes sa7i7
about the accident , hayda l accident ma ma32oul yikhalli l we7ed yi3ani min l achiya yalli eltellak yeha bil ne2ta :2!!

al massi7 kam.
ana ktir 7abet hal dialogue ben marie juliette w michel.
bass i have an important point to discuss.
the expression abnormal kid :
si on voit ce que jesus a dit pour le paralytique(almoukhala3) qui etait fut entrer par le toit sur son lit pour que jesus le guerit,
jesus lui a dit au debut:tes péchés sont remis(maghfouraton laka khatayak)alors les scribes(alkataba) commencent à dire qui est ce ,qui a le pouvoir de remettre(yaghfor) les péchés(alkhataya)autre que dieu...
puis jesus lui a dit "lève_toi prends ton lit et va chez toi..."
de cette exemple on peut tirer que "l'abnormal" ou bien l'anormale est celui qui fait des péchés et qui est loin du dieu et du messie. c'est ça qui a interressé jesus au debut et non pas l'anormalité du paralytique.
pour cela je pense que l'abortion d'un enfant anormale est vraiment une crime ,puisqu' un enfant anormale,s'il prend son droit de vivre, peut etre il peut atteindre le royaume des cieux(malakout al samawat) avec les pères saints.mais le serveur de satan ne peut plus.et c'est le but de notre vie "le royaume de dieu" et ne pas avoir une vie comfortable .jesus est notre vie.
7akan kam

still! mich 3am 2e2dar 2e2tene3 ma3koun!
ok Jesus hammo ino l inssen ma yikoun 3emil khataya bas ana ma kinit 3am i7ki min hal pont de vue
ana bas 3am oul ino l ijhad iyyem biykoun nécessaire lamman baddo yi2ather salban( min wijhet nazari l chakhsiyyi bas) 3ala 3aylli bi kemila
yimkin t2oulou ino ana imeni d3if ,which is most likely the case, bas ana i dont think that jesus wants us all to suffer if there is a way to releive us from such a pain
so why is it ok to kill the baby when he endangers his mom's life? why is it ok to give the family then the choice between his life and his mom's et parsuite tuer le bébé? manno atel se3ita?
alors pourquoi ne pas leur donner ce même choix quand la vie du bébé leur fera tous un grand malheur? pourquoi ne pas leur épargner cette vie traumatisée?

i totally agree wwith u elie,
about ur question marie, when it come that u have to choose between two lifes, the mom life or the baby's.

1- if u don't make abortion, the mom will die.....
2- if u make abortion the baby will die....

so that here because in the two case there is a person will die, u can have the choice....
it's not like ur permitting a person die, but u are saving a person life??
it's like ur in a boat and two persons "3am igghra2o", u can save only what, what u do??? here u have to choose

its the same when it comes 2 me!
i wont repeat myself coz my opinion hasnt changed (lal assaf!)
u r still killing one person to save another , so let me tell u this , isnt it the same situation when u execute ( bte3dom) a dangerous criminal to keep him from killing new innocent people if he gets away ??
think about it and dont tell me we leave him bil sijin l mou2abbad li2anno there is always a way for him to get out !

marie, my sister, sorry i think i was the problem in this long dilogue and u deserve my reply...

no excuses but i had work all last week and uni todsy i just got the chance to read thru all this.

1st im not here to convince u or convince anyone, i wanna talk from an ethical point of vue, and logic 2.
u have a life, will u be happy if ur life was ment to be taken???
i think, more i know that science identify the baby as a full human, then u r killing a human in here....
another question, if u or anyone had a sexual relationship with the partner "not husband" and got pragnant, will u commit abortion because of a mistake u did???
last but not least will u kill an old man just because he lost all sence of life and he is suffering and we do wat we call "almawt elrahim"
for me it is all the same case, "i3dem" is the same...
who r you to take someones life????
i wanna change the subject in here to talk much more about god's love, "l2annahou hekaza ahabba allah el3alam hatta bazala ibnahou alwahid min ajli hayet el3alam" "likay le yahlouk man you2m bihi bal takoun lahou alhayet alabadiya"
then marie my question for you, and bare in minde i do understand where ur coming from, do you know how much god loved us???? do u c the miracles around you??? everyday, every hour, god shows us his love, his grace, his unlimitted grace, he suffered for us, yet we killed him, he died to save our life, and now he gave some couple life, the grace to have a child, maybe abnormal" as u classified him but what what is our mission on this earht?? is it to rase normal children? make money? have a nice life? nice car? nice house? is this why u as a christian here for??? trust it is more than that, it is the love of god that keeps us alive, "toursilou rouhaka fayoukhlakoun" "taftahou wajhaka fayamtali2ou koullou hayin souraran" is your happiness related to how much pain u suffer? do u think if u raise a normal kid u wont suffer for him, but if u raise an abnormal kid then u will suffer? "touba li2ankiye2 alkouloub la2anna lahoum malakout alsamawet" he suffered, and yet he said "forgive them my father" he died but he was risen from the death, thats the light thats what is more important, i hope when i get maried i'll be considered for his grace to give me an abnormal child, because though i'll suffer his him/her yet i'll be happy coz this child has already a place in heaven, yet it is not my fault nor my wifes nor gods fault "bal likay tazhar 2a3mel allah fih".

i have to stop in here otherwise i'll go for ever as i said, it is only logic, not human logic, but faith and christianity, "inti wdamirik" dont get it personal and im happy to get ur reply bk...
hakkan kam

hi bashir
first i didnt understand why u said u were the problem!
anyhow let me answer ur questions by order

I am aware that I have a life and certainly I wont be happy if it was taken away from me , and if by this question u meant to refer to the unborn baby's life that is taken away from him when the abortion takes place , then Id have to say that he is not aware yet that he has one , iza ken hek assdak min hal sou2el

I would NEVER have a sexual relation outside of marriage , and Id never cheat on my husband , I can talk about myself I dunno about other people , but I DO NOT agree of abortion just because the girl or the man liked to sleep together for fun , but what about when the girl has been raped and she became pregnant in our society , what do u think she should do then??!

u talked about euthanasie , and I think that in some ways , if the man himself already told his family that he agrees of it , and if was brainly dead or something , ok then lets end his suffering , coz i dont think that he will ever wake up again since he is medically dead , but im guessing u will have a totally different point of vue, so if he agrees , then I wont be taking his life , HE would be taking his own life

Of course I know how much God loves us all and how much he sacrified for us , I know all that and I know that he has given us and keeps giving us much more than we deserve and need and I am thankfull for that all the time . I never give up on God coz I know that he would NEVER give up on me , I have a great faith in Jesus and I am sure that he knows when I need and he will give t to me when he sees it right

having said that , I must tell u that I dont beleive in a luxurious life , cars and houses and money are the least of my concerns , I only ask god for health and success in my work (when ill have one ) and yes I do see all the miracles around me and I thank GOd for them all the time
but no i dont measure life by pain , and I know that raising any kid is a challenge and a conswork , but in my point of vue , raising a DIFFERENT kid would make me and my family suffer even more and that is a pain i am willing to let go of

ya khayyi inta zalami mou2men allah yizid imenak aktar w aktar , but why do u ask God 2 give u such a child , and who told u that he would be going straight to heaven??!!
and i know its no one's mistake but its god's will , and again I tell u good luck in that!

hayda damiri yali ken 3am yi7ki all the time ,maybe l 3atfi bteghlob 3lei w maybe l co3ef l insseni yalli fiyyeh , allah yizidni imen!

alla yzid eljami3, wana awaloun...
dear marie, i think tu r more realistic than anyone of us, wich is totaly right. sometimes a person can not be other than obective an realistic...

from my point of vue, im not against abortion in all cases, so lets agree on something in here, im with abortion in 2 conditions only:

1-if the girl was raped and got pregnant, i would say we cant force her to keep the child
2- if the mother is in danger and we had to kill the baby for her safety then i cant force someone to sacrifice her life for someone else, and i think all members of the group agree with me on these two steps.

my objection was in case the baby is not normal, and i think we all talked aobut it enough, you ask a question how would i know that he/she is going to heaven? my answer is i dont, i just assume, since such a baby will born and get baptized and will not have the ability to turn towards evile things since he's mind and body makes it difficult for him/her. it is just an assumption marie and again i dont know.
but i object on abortion for simply one reason, i wanna let my pain go off, i dont wanna suffer with such a kid, and i dont want him to suffer, who told you that you will suffer with him, and why dont you trust god that gave you that baby. i didnt wanna reply simply coz there is no reason our debate is going no where, it is a "jadal 3akim"

al massi7 kam
it is sure that if the women was raped ,a big problem naffssni wa jassadi will bother the women, bass killing the baby is not the great solution. i think that if she can go to the hospital during 36 hours ,will solve the problem;coz the reunion of sperm and ovule will not happen ,and then she will not be "enceinte""7amel".
it is sure that it is a big "tentation"(tajrouba) bass the verb of kill is not the solution!!!!!!!

in the second point if we have to choose between the mother and the son! here it is totally a different case ; one of them will die or both so we have to choose we must make a choice .coz sure if we can ,we'll rescue both, but we can't ;so in this action we rescue the mother ,we have no choice!!!! so we can not compare this case with the other cases.
7akan kam.

elie thx for ur reply............

1- i totally agree with elie,
how can we accept killing a baby if the women is raped!! what is the wrong that this baby did to deserve diying???

2- Marie, remenber the last criminal that jesus met on the cross, this criminal said that he deserve to be dead. but what was the response of God, ALyawma takounou ma3i filfirdaws!!!
his the first one to be in heaven after jesus, the first person (after jesus) who walked in heaven is a criminal, who in the eyes of humanity was deserving to die!!!
no marie no one deserve to die, but some deserve to be kept away because they are dangerous, i agree putting a criminal in prison because of two reason:
1- keep him away from society because his danger.
2- give him chance to change.
i don't see any other reason, alintikam it's for people not for christan!!!
so why to kill a criminal, "shou bistafeid aslan"?
i agree in killing only when it is for saving lifes?
ex: when the baby isw dangerous on mum life.
- in wars to defend ourself.

Comme dit le grand théologien Olivier Clement, si on a pas le droit de dire ca (ce que dit Elie et Michel) que si on prend à notre charge le soutien totale morale et matériel de la femme en question.

il faut pas oublier la souffrance atroce de la femme avant de choisir le pire choix.

exactement , il faut qu'un pere se charge de la femme tous le temps de sa souffrance

[size=12]l masi7 kam 7akkan kam

hi guys i might be late in joining this conversation coz i joined the forum lately! l liked this converstion and this is why i wanted to post my opinion.
1-"man arada an yatba3ni fal yakfor binafsihi waya7mel salibahou wa yatba3ni" so i believe that every one has his own cross to bear and the"abnormal" kid might be that cross.maybe it's not god's will but it sure happened because god allowed it to happen to strenghthen our faith(remember ayyoub in the old testament) .

2-if we decide to get rid of the kid we'll be very selfish and forgetting all about god's mercy!! God is capable of everything and sure he is capable to cure all the sicknesses and abnormalities(the one who has faith in him as much as the "7abbat l khardal" can move mountains!)

3-who are we to take someone's life we are nothing to judge if someone deserves life or not only god can decide about this.

4-as for the raped woman who is pregnant, i understand her suffering and her despair but killing is not a solution she can give birth to the baby and then give him to someone who'll take care of him, there are a lot of associations who take care of the orphelins and even there are hundreds of families who want to have a baby so bad but they didn't recieve this grace(ba3ref inno haida 7all yemken zalem coz the whole situation is unfair)!

nchalla ma koun nsit chi coz i've been interrupted many times before finishing this:lol:
any way god bless u all
have a nice day

I am totally against your first point Jana.

Kat3an ma khass abnormal child with Salib.

can u explain further your objection fouad? coz i didn't get ur point

i think that fouad ment the following:

jana u cant say that the abnormal child is a cross, remember
"le heza akha2a wale abaweh" a cross is something havy "7iml thakil" we ask god to take it from us, god ment in this sentence, tha we must follow him regardless of wat is our "itimemet dounyawiya" we shall not think that the way to him is heavy and long, no easy at all, it is a cross we shall hold, this cross is simply the others, the problems, life, money.... by god we are srong enough to hold things like that and forget ourselves and follow him, the abnormal child is not a cross, nor a problem, ad god got nothing to do with it. it true he gives life, a perfect one, he never mistaken mean he will never create something with defects, thus the body is not important it is just a way of life. the abnormal kid, wasnt born abnormal because of god, nor his parents nor to let his parents suffer this is wat fouad is objecting on i guess coz this is my way as well.

i don't agree with u bash:

1- the cross is "insilakhouna 3an malzat al dounia" min ajl kalimat al rab< (refusing all the desires of the world to have the word of God), and i don't see why (Fouad) u can consider the abnormal kid as a cross!

2- the body is important,