civil marriage

hi all
well fouad maybe u can help us through this conversation coz u had a "nadwe" on this subject
so what do u think about civil marriage?
are u with or against? why?

Hi Jana.
I will try to post some ideas. as soon as I can

i'm totally with....
i'm totally against....

i'm with cause evryone have the right to choose the way he want... if i don't beleive in God and my girlfriend don't beleive in God, how we will marry, if there is no civil marriage?!

but. i'm totally against when it comes for christan as the only marriage.... a christan can marry civil, if he will mary in church also....
but i can't accept that a christan marry civil and just civil... becasue he's refusing his relation with aljama3a wich is the church!!!

totaly agree micho, miyeh bel miyeh

well fi ra2e bi2oul inno even l masi7e bi7e2ello yetjawwaz civil iza ma ken moumeris la masi7yeto mazbout w iza manno 3ate ahammye la sirr l zawej li2anno bihal 7ale bikoun 3am yed7ak 3a 7alo w 3al knise w 3al jame3a iza byetjawwaz kanase

I Agree jana.... this what i think about
but when accepting the marrage for this reason so we are accepting that this person don't belong to al jama3a so he can't 2itnewal.... do u agree in this!!!

mmmm well micho about the mounewale i don't think that this is a reason not to yetnewal coz fi ktir masi7ye bye7ermo 7alon min l mounewale la asbeb mawjoude bil knise w mich ma3neta inno battalo bil jame3a nchalla koun 2deret wassel l fekra mazbout
bass kamen 3nde moula7aza inno l knise bhal 2yem battalet metel abel(jame3a w ma7abbe w...) halla2 sar kill wa7ad masi7e 3al tezekra -w mich bi 2iradto- lamma baddo yetjawwaz byetjawwaz kanase(sar folklore) yemken li2anno t3awwado 3al fekra(bil mazaher akid) ya li2anno ma fi zawej madane!!! w kill l 3alam betfout 3al eddes w btetnewal 7atta law wad3on ma byesma7lon!!!
so i think we must do sthg to spread awareness and revive christianism(the true one)

honestly from my christian point of view i dont agree for the simplest reason that civil marriage is a simple contract, yi3ne sar el zawej "mou2assase" bas ni7na el mou2assasse yalli mnis3ala ina tkoun masi7iye w t2adde la tikwin 3ayle masi7iye.its just a piece of paper. On the other hand "sir el zawej" moukaddass w alla 7ader ma3 el rpu7 el 2oudous, akid i prefer going with the church marriage

huh.
Is it like some are saying that ivil marriage is a contract but christian marriage is a devine institution (that's what I ve understood).

This isssue is veryyyyyyyyy wide it relates to ta2ifieh and secularism, it relats to marriage, to churches laws and power...

Anyway I would like to show some point in this issue.

I am going to strat from 2 base concepts: 1)that christianity separates between al din wa al dawla,
2)people's relations and conflicts resolutions should be defined and guarded by laws.


I don't know when the concept of mariage appeared first in history as social contract. But we know that it's a social phenomena that tells the state, country, tribute or "Al jama3a" within a person lives , that a man and a woman are legaly living together as a family.
And the relation between this couple is goverened by a law.
During history, laws of a7wal el shakhsieh (which marriage is part of) changed according to progressing or regressing folklors, principals and beliefs.
Because of many reasons and one of them the male dominant societie, marriage laws were privilaging men and unfair to weman (from the present point of view).

Now let's see how christianity dealt with already existed social and religious phenomena.

First I take the example of al ma3moudiah. the ma3moudiah was a common act that people do, so the christianity(by a request from jesus) took it and added a new concept to it which is "7loul al rou7 al kodos".
One other example is what "you7anna al zahabi el fam"(iza manni gheltan) did when he changed the ceremonies of the "God of Sun" to celebrate Nativity and he changed the day to celebrating nativity to 25 Dec so the poeple would forget about al 3adet al wasaniya and
remeber God as he reveald himself by His Son.
Finally a small example that the 7arakeh did. they took the concept of papa Noel and tune it to become the man that is a messenger from Jesus sending gifts to children, asking them to be nice and to love each others...

So what chritianity did it took common social acts and 3ammadeton to become "li2ajli majdi ellah" ...

So christianity tammamit mafhoum el zawaj al ma3rouf fi el 3ahd al kadim ta 7atta sar sirr min asrar al kanisa.

But still Bel nesbeh lal dawleh this couple is not allowed to live together because they are not married infront of the state.
So at the beginning christians were married according to the laws of the roman empire. But you7anna al zahabi el fam told them that they should deal with each other as God's requests and not according to the roman laws (in case of disagreements and problems between the couple).

Halla2 in lebanon to be married according to the state you have to be married in one of the 18 sects in lebanon or married in a foreign country according to that country's law.

So the church in lebanon has the power to juge "al a7wal al shakhieh"(including marriage) according to it's own law. I ve read part of it it's like any other laws; 3endo bounoud w fakarat wou a7kam...

But I found it in some places not fair towrad weman. In my opinion it needs a lot of modifications.
(for example a man can divorce his wife if he told her to not to go to a house and she did against his will).

One other thing not all people in lebanon are juged the same in what concerns their "a7wal al shakhieh".
I see that One aspect of injustice in a country is when people are not juged by the same norms.

So I believe that a modern civil law of a7wal al shakhsiay that achieve justice among

lebanese people is essential for me as Christian.

so I am with al zawaj al madani al ilzami.
THAT DOESN'T DENY AL ZAWAJ AL KANASI.
But al zawaj al kanasi would become a free choice. And that what christianity is all about.

The Freedom to choose Jesus.

That what I can say for now...sorry iza dajjaretkom

machalah machalah machalah chou hal fouad
allah ye7mik aboulfouf
chi raw3a

I Totally agree Fouad!!
al zawaj al madaniyajeb an yakoun zawaj ilzami 7ifazan 3ala maf7oum al watan walmouwatinia...
but i can't accept those who choose only the civil marriage and refuse to marry in church, in the church.....
do u accpet in this pint Fouad?!

je pense micho que iza heni ma bi2emnou bel zawej el kanassi el afdal yrou7o yetzawajo madani , a7ssan ma ydansso el assrar el moukadasseh

This is a very interesting subject, first i totally agree with Fouad, even though i'm not sur etotally of the historical sayings, and Fouad said that himself also. and i'm just adding some words as a sequence to Fouad's

In the early days, people used to have a civil mariage then get blessed by the priest.
plus, who says that these two are married? church, them, the government, God?
who?,what does make a marriage holly? love or the blessing of the priest. If it is the blessing of church and jama3a, then i think this is harta2a. The honest love between two persons that reflects God's love make them one, that is the true meaning of marriage by the Christian faith.

For me, Christian marriage is important, but that does not mean i refuse anyone who get married in any way they like, they do whatever they want and God will judge.

i agree micho, i agree elie but:

Elie, iza ma b2imeno bilzawaj el kaniiseh ye3neh ma bi2emno biliknisseh so.... ma fiyoun 2itnewalo.

micho, i agree.. after, elma3moudieh bitkoun mazbouta iza yalli 3am it3amad mano m2iman, no..... bass we all agree ino 2itnewal la2ano mamna3ref chou fi bi2albo allah b2a3ref...
w iza wehed m2eman billah w mano m3amad ma byitnewal.... and we all agree in that!!!

what i'm asking is not about how much the marraige is holy or not.... but when someone refuse to marry in church (istefel kif matzawaj....) kif minewlo, i refuse inno 2itnewal.... yalli badou 2itnewal lezoum ykoun jizi2 min el jame3a, w lama el jame3a bitchouf innou b3id 3an 2alla hy2eh btifisloo w bitmna3ou 3an el mounewleh... haida mich mirtibit bi choufi bi2alboo allah b7ikoum ba3den.....

ok micho u may be right but can u give us examples about people "ab3adathom" l jama3a??? and i'm not asking examples from the first church
i don't think that this happened! so we must not talk about the perfect thing, we must deal with reality and try to correct it.
ba3den i think ma 7ada elo 7a2 yeb3od 7ada tene 3an l knise coz bikoun 3am bidino, w ma 7ada elo 7a2 ydin l tene. ne7na lezim ne7terem 7orryet l akhar lli alla 3ata yeha w ba3den alla bi2arrer w bidin
peace

IT'S NOT ABOUT ISSUE FROM FIRST CHURCH ONLY....
in fact..... i know some people don't 2etnewalo for a more "stupid" reason, exemple: they eat before el 2idess!!!.....
want other "stupid" reason: fi al brojezmani a lot of fathers told the people that who eat can't 2etnewal....
another exemple: a lot of aba2 rou7iyin yamna3oun abna2ahoum min el mounawala for different reasons!!!!
so what do u think?!

Je pense que Ce n'est pas qu'une question de communion, celui qui a refusé de se marrier à l'église, lui a choisi de sortir de l'église (fasal nafsahou 3an eljame3a). il est libre de suivre ou pas l'église, mais il n'est pas libre de faire une église à sa guise.
S'il n'est pas baptisé il est hors de l'église
s'il se marie hors de l'église il est hors. C'est lui qui a choisi.
....
il peut toujours revenir, mais après avoir repentir.

i agree totally with u rami , miyeh bel miyeh

Rami tu a dit ce que je veut dit, totalement....
alors Elie tu agree avec sa...

akid micho , bass je n'etait pas d'accord avec "fasslou men al jame3a"!! mais tu as clarifier les choses et rami encore .

michel what do u mena stupid reason "eating befor communion"
man ya2koul jasadi bidoun isti7kak yajlib daynounat linafsih,.
shou bek sayir 3am thartik ya akh!!!!!!!!!! shou mfakkar jasad el masi7 li3beh yi3ni sorry guys i know it is not the topic but i cant stay calm... we have to consider our fathers and have some respect for our traditions regardless if we beleive that it is true or not... we want to change ok fine we can change in a better way the right way. we are talking dangerous things in here that need attention... i cant believe u just said that michel, how can u describe fasting before communion as stupid, then y do we fast at all, why do we fast half of the yr why do we fast wed and friday... if u wanna take the body of god u better be ready for it. and last time we had fouad offending the fathers sorry guys but this is unacceptable whoever u are i dont care,
orthodoxy been always strict when it comes to faith, we have our faith we have our tradition respect it, and if u have something to say say it in a nice way dont ever think higher than wat u really are, "alkibriye2 akbar alkhatata"... again im sorry i dont want to heart anyone and if i c u now ill kiss ur hands but this is not acceptable anymore, watch ur words guys.
go bless you all

bashir i accept all ur word and i understand ur reaction but:

- i said stupid in therm of comparing:
" when we are discussing a person married civil and refuse to marry in the church, comparing to a person who eat before coming to the church!! the second reason become very stupid related to this!!! so "STUPID" is here a therm of comparing!!!

- but i have to say that fast before eating is not "holy" i have the roght to refuse it or to say stupid about it if i want (but i don't want), why cause all the apotres (st peter, st paul...) and in the first church they called the afkharistia as "3asha2 al rab" because evry sunday they make a big "3asha" they eat al and then they 2intnewalou!!!! if st. paul eat before 2itnewal why i can't!!! it's another subject i don't wnt to discuss more but just to say "it's not holy".....

guys chattayna ktir 3an l mawdou3!!!!