KARAR JADID FI MASIRAT ALINHIDAR (TA7IYA L JOSEPH ATALLAH)

It's obvious Jana, Vote for the people that are dying for Lebanon. Vote for 14 Azar

bravo fouad ,
" amin 7oub akthar min haza an yabzoula alinsan nafsa7ou min ajl man you7ib"
dakhlak chou badoun aktar minheik?!

Jana, Rami in one word say a lot....
bass ana 3akso bihkeh ktir.... so please listen carefully:

1- min 2al inno abouna touma bya3rif aktar?! aw asdik n7it 3a2elna 3a janeb w nkhale abouna 2efaker 3ana?! chou hal manti2?

2- المنطق الشمولي الذي يشمل كل السياسيين و يجعلهم فئة واحدة هو منطق غير مسيحيّ، الله يسألنا أن ننظر إلى كل فرد بفرديته و ليس بالجماعة التي ينتمي اليها، لم يكن رؤؤساء الكهنة كلهم أشرار كان بينهم شخص يدعى نيقوديموس.

3- السياسي المحترف، والحال هذه، لا يمكنه أن يحافظ على حقّ الإنجيل يعني السياسي المحترف لازم يطرد من الكيسة ؟ مش هيك؟ و هل عندو الجرأة أبونا توما إذا إجا لعندوا سياسي يقلّو انا ما بناولك؟
4- بعدين دخلك القديس قسطنطين ما كان سياسيّ؟ و القديسة هيلانا ما كانت سياسيّ؟ و القديس القيصر نيقولا ما كان سياسيّ؟ و اله ابونا ما بيعترف بقداستن؟ او من زمان كان بحق للمسيحي يكون بيشتغل سياسي و هلأ لأ؟؟؟

i am with you michel in all what you say but in also the people who fight isreal and die are ma matou min 2ajl alwatan tony franjieh ma mat min 2jil alwatan rashid karameh ma mat min 2ajil alwatan bas innou ana ma b7ib hada bas inou kilmit 7a2 tin2al w la2nou ma kil 14 azar bimoun libnan fi minoun bihmoun 7aloun ba3den lebnan w 8 azar fi 3alam hiek

tayeb likou intou btwaf2ou lal7arake trashi7 hada 3al 2inkhabat w yikoun biyin 14 and 8 would you vote to him or to 14 azar ?

ye3ni chi gharib!!
chi massiret en7idar chi , tefssir 3ala zawe2na la karar el mo2tamar , w tlou3 w nzoul bi chaghlet mafi chi mennaa ,
chi men 2awel abouna chaghlet , w mne7ki ka 2enou ne7na bi 3emrou wala bi khebertou ....
ya rab r7amna

1-Help me please shou dakhal abouna Touma?
2-Elias, what is the difference between the article of elmou2tamar and the article of Michel
3- i will meet Abouna Toni this weekend and ask him and i will return to you with clear background

hi all
rami we should stop arguing(netchera3) cz it's useless, into 3am tetchera3o 3a ichya mich mestehle tetkhena2o kermela, and you should read the article cz if u put all ur political thoughts that are emotional and not rational u'll find that abouna touma is right(in my opinion) .

fouad, for u 14 azar are the one who u should vote for, for me they're not even worth to be called 14 azar cz that day wasn't theirs(it was for every lebanese fed up with what's hapening even those who doesn't support any politician) but they raped it for their own benefits!and here i'm talking about the politicians cz there's a lot of people who are not "teb3in" blindly. and another thing plz don't classify martyrs cz every one who dies for the country is a martyr what about the ordinary people who are dying because of some politicians(birou7o fare2 3emle?? ) are they "barghach"??? , what about the soldiers??? what about the resistance??? at least in death don't classify. and if i had the right to vote i would vote for a normal(=not politician) person who is fully educated, smart and patriotic who knows how to manage our situation instead of ruining it

michel dib i read what u wrote carefully now read mine: i'm not saying give ur head a break and let others think for u but just don't be so " moutachabbes" stay open for conversation cz u might be wrong, for sure abouna touma is wiser than all of us i bet u or anyone of us has never at least read as much as he did or prayed as much as he did etc... نسيت موضوع الاب الروحي?و قديش مهم?, انو هوي افهم و اوعا منا?ليش هلأ عم تنكرلو حقو?)
it's true لم يكن رؤؤساء الكهنة كلهم أشرار كان بينهم شخص يدعى نيقوديموس ..." but look at our situation in lebanon, for god sake if there was one poliyician throughout these years(from 1990 till now) who was good for the country and deeply patriotic we wouldn't be facing this miserable, full of disaster situation!
في مفهوم غلط لل سياسة و لل سلطة , ولل حكم و حتّى لل وطنba3den akid no أبونا توما إذا إجا لعندوا سياسي يقلّو انا ما بناولك؟, ma byamela not cz ما عندو الجرأة but cz ما الو حق يدينو and don't mix the commnion with politics plz.

بعدين رزقالله عا ايام القديس قسطنطين و القديسة هيلانا و القديس القيصر نيقولا لأنو كانو يشتغلو بضمير و يفكرو بي طريقة مسيحيّة كرميل هيك صارو قديسين, ما سرقو ولا تزعرنو ولا خانو ولا استزلمو ولا ارتشو والا خدعو ولا تخازلو ولا ستغلو الشعب متل اصحابنا ل زعما ال طوباويي!
اصلا شطينا عن الفكرة للي كنت قاصدتا لما حطيت المقالة لانوانا ما كنت عم دافع عن حدا سياسي كنت بس عم انقلكن وجهة نظر محقّة من حدا خارج السياسة و شايف اكتر و ابعد من ما نحنا شايفين

[/size]sorry iza deya2et 7ada
peace

hello all, waaaww how weird that politics are almost the only subject that we can never agree on .
we all are patriotic?? we all love our country??? then why let others decide for us not let us participate in the decision. No political party, no political man has ever shown a love for his country...they are fighting all the time while there are people who cant eat, cant find decent clothes or even cant live decently.

As a citizen i am a part of this community, i have feelings thoughts that i practically want to accomplish and maybe i find some political party that fits the best what i have as expectations.

But before all this i am a christian, so while supporting a political party i shld always think as a christian first.

I will refuse to be a follower to no one but jesus.HE is the only person who really died on behalf of each one of us. Who did it among these politicians??

Which one has ever cut of his very luxary salary to help a family that vote for him???1 or 2??

In my opinion, no one of them is worth it.When i support a political party, i support the idea of making my country a better place to live for everyone because m christian and because "2ou7ibbou 3adouwe", "2ou7ibbou karibi ka nafsi".

If we all are agreeing that we want Lebanon a better place for all of us with better opportunities, better education better everything, why do we disagree???we are a party, and a huge one. I guess if we cooperate we can do smthg.

"What MJO did??" well MJO made each one of us develop wonderful thoughts and principles that i dont think we are ready to trade for the world.Now as we go in community, we can see the difference that we make if we have the intention to build...

Jana. pleas ma kel ma tshoufeh two people arguing t2ouleh 3am yetkhana2o. enteh tawwleh belik 3layna shouway.
It's your tendance not to call this group 14 Azar . But actually this is what they are called .

In Democratic regims we don't vote for a person we vote for a project for suggestion for a party for a group.

We should have a bit of political education to judge performance on scientific criteria. Emotional judgment alone wont improve the situation.

About Abouna Touma, 3ozran akhi elias bass ma bwefi2 el tosnif elli 7atto bi ma ma3nah enno kel el siesiyin ma biyesou . w iz enta fhemet gheir shi pleas shra7leh .
(w mishen le3bt el Basket essa ma ekkadet 3al wled barkeh bkra .)

mate, just to answer micheal why i describe them by the word liers, and is this christian??? yes it is, and b2oula ana wwe2if 3al sati7. to tell someone he is a lier is not a sin or are we gonna disagree on this as well....
politics is not for us at the moment with the current situation bottom line, sorry all i did not have time to read thru coz it is getting late and im so busy with work ill go bk and read thru this i promis. for the time being, be safe and sorry fouad no one is dying for me other wise i wouldn be outside bilghirbeh as we say, 7aram 3laykoun fat7ou 3inaykoun 7aj ba2a nghashim 7alna, what did they do for u, me the ppl, lebanon, and they call themselves lebanese, sorry for the word but they are honestly bunch of liers.... like it or not this is my opinion and im still christian or you gonna deny my christianity for that...

Dear all

bach ana bwaf2ak alra2i innou most of the politics are liers but let us take a real example

Tarek mitri is the first mjo member that really works in politics "as my info" his trail during the war as a person all lebanese united with him and all people know how he is "watani,sad2e,diplomatic,...." why we dont work to have all our MP maybe with the same charactristics of mr. Mitri
eventhough he is with one side against other this time but i think he "moutamyiz" in his work and charactristics and "2akhla2ou" 3an ba2i jam3it 14 azar

hi all,
jana,
1- in fact when u say "stop arguing and listen to someone who knows better", for me u mean what i understand... if u don't mean it that o.k.
2- ana mitchabass bira2yeh hatta yisbit el3akess!!
3- it's not inportant how much u read.... but how much u understand, and it's not important how much u pray but how much u do the will of God... (and in this two point no one can know whose better only God). and remneber "la yastahin ahad bi hadasatik" cause paul knew that a lot of people will say for the apotre as ur saying..
4- i don't classify martyrs but i want to know the cause of the cha7ada for evry one... moukatel hizbollah died defending islam while jebran touaini died defending lebanon... kan likoul wahed kadiyatahou...
5- yes al ab el rou7i know better in how to lead me to alkhalass el rou7i... bass el ab elrouhi ma bya3ref aktar mini bilzira3a walla aktar mineh bilsiyesse wa aktar min el hakim bil toub (ye3neh ma fi 2ine2cho bi nazariet Darwin lel tatawor?!?!?)
6-u said: " if there was one poliyician who was good for the country and deeply patriotic we wouldn't be facing this miserable," but Jana the question must be: " why there was not any good politican in power (bilsulta) all this period..... one of the million cause is cause we MJO are not playing politic (so na7nou nata7amal hazihe aldaynouna).
7- la2 chaglet alka7en ino yenwel? bifrek lech mich min makan binewel? la2ano abouna chagelto ya3ref kil el ra3iyeh? wil chakhess yalli mano mnih bil ra3iyeh chaghlet el kahen maynewlo? tayeb iza abouna touma3am yi2oul inno el siyesseh chakhess mich mni7 w gheir massi7eh lakan ma lazem yinewlo!! lakan el kahaneh bildiya3 iza binet hatta himra ma binewella aw lebsseh assir ma binewella!!! heydi ma3leh bass siyesseh abouna touma bya3erfo inno mano mni7 (la2ano bilnisbeh la2alo kiloun manon mne7) mamou3 yinewlo!!
8- kil yalli 3am 2iyra w mi2tene3 inno el siyesseh mano mnni7 aw innou el massi7eh bibatel massi7eh iza ichtaghal siyesse! lazem yitaleb min el majma3 inno yiterdo kil el siyesyeh min leknisseh! wheidi awal we7ed lezem 2italeb fi2a abouna touma!!
9-lama el kaissar nicola amar eljeich inno yi2tol kil ness (women and childen also) yalli keno 3am 2itzaharo la2anon maiytin min eljou3, w houwe 2a3ed bi2asro chib3an... akid ana mab2oul riz2allah 3ala hal2iyam....
bass ni7na jame3a lama el siyesseh ma3na bissir 2idiiss wlama didna bissir kefer!!!!!
thank u maram!!!
w haida maw2ef siyesseh inta 7er fi!!!
8-

Bass ta ma yekhod el ni2ash tabi3 7eddeh. ya jame3a ma nensa ne7na ma 3am nne2ish ta ma nousla la ma7al. ne7na 3am nne2ish ta nestafid men ara2 ba3ed w khebret ba3ed.

w kellna 3am ne3tzir BISODO2 men ba3ed iza 3am ne7tadd shouway. Hayda Ne7na MJOians Mounfati7in 3ala Ba3ed bi ma7abba wa sodok. "Koullouna wa7id koullouna ikhwa w na7nou nou7ibbou ba3ouna ba3dan kama yasou3 a7abbana".

sorry all, iza hisein inou ana 3indeh tabe3 7eddeh. bass 3an jad la2!!!

do u know when the lebanese problem will be solved?
it's only when we stop following the others, when we stop relying on the foreingners it's when we think lebanese and act lebanese.
the called "leaders" are the core problem!!
why can't we be a seperate mouvement from politics who carries the country's cross and take it to its salvation?
why can't we imitate our lord and save lebanon (sure with his help) like he saved us?
leaders must be changed, corruption must be deleted, thefts must be stopped, meritocraty must rule(al rajoul al mounasib fi l makan al mounasib)
if u want to work in politics that's fine but don't be followers just let's form a new mouvement to reach our dreams for the best lebanon

so? are u ready to renounce to all the politicians and stand for the problems of the people?our problems?our social , economical,freedom,etc... problems ?
peace

chi bi 7azzen ktiiiir , enou noussal nettewal 3ala eb2na el orthodox yalli men chouf 7alna fion bi hal tari2a 3al internet w edem kel el 3alam , maba3ref chou badi 2oul , gharib w 3ayb.

1) abouna touma ma 2al 7abibi micho eno kel el siyessiyeh mech mne7 , enta ekheda w mechi fia w 3am bet 7allel , 3raf chou n7aka ba3den ktob.

abouna 2al bel mo2tamar khayi fouad , iza btezkor, enou yemken ykoun el chakhess bi7eb el ssiyesseh w bi7eb yedressa , mafi meni3 abadan !!!! bass ma yenssa enjilo lama bado yechteghel fia !!!! zekir????
w kamal w 2al , enou lezim yet2adass 7ata yechteghela , ye3ni bi ma3na ekhar , lezim y3ich 7ayet el adesseh metel ktir 3alam , exemple (marie droub , costy bandaleh ...)

so ma t2ekhzouna , bass zedit el essa m wel 7aki yalli ma menno feydeh ella el techhir wel ideneh , ....

Dear all, you are fighting a lot, that's okay, but the important thing is not "NOUKAFER" someone.
regarding what Abouna said in the mou2tamar, it was implied for sure that a true christian must not get in the politics game, but what is important here is what Jana added, that is Abouna Touma's article, i think it defines better what he ment.
He has the right to say whatever he wants, so if he says that christians must not get into politics, he can say whatever he wants and anyone can argue with him, it's everyone's right as a human and christian, the problem is in TA7RIM and TAKFIR someone for not having my point of vue. And i hope it's noyt the case.
Second, i think we must choose our words more carefully regarding speaking of other people.
Third, from my point of vue, in my work and everybodies work there are sometimes more difficulties then in the field of politics so i think politics is not as mentioned something exeptionel, it's problem is momentarial cz of the current situation.
Fourth,i say with maram and others, someone can be a true christian everywhere even in politics
Fifth, many of our saints were politicians and there is a theory that in the early days the priests and bishops were the chifs and leaders of cities and politicians.

Thank u Jana,
now we came to a point of meeting!!!
yes i agree totlly with what u are saying.... in fct u was talking politic...
and as i mentionned before a person can't be an mjo menber and at the same time stupid follower of a leader!!!! ma fina nijma3 letnen!!!
so when a mas2oul bilharake (which mean hatta sar mas2oul 3ineh fikrou salim) work in politic i'm 100% sure he can't be a follower! cause he's an mjo menber!!! so this karar kano 3am 2ioul inno mas2oulina mich mne7 aw mamnousa2 fiyoun!! and it's a big problem?!?!

- Elie i don't now really why u are angry from me!!!
if abouna said as u explain: u must be angry from elmou2tamar and el kirar taba3oun!! la2ano 3akess ma 3am 2ioul abouna (mitil ma inta chara7et fo2)!!
el massi7eh lezem 2it2adass 3atoul, ma fi ichtighil tib aw zira3a aw handasse aw zibel aw siyesse iza mano m2adass fa haida haki b2ichmol kilchi mich bass el siyesseh
- ana istanadet 3al el makal m 2ana ma kinit bilmou2tamar fa maba3ref chou 2al abouna fi!!!
- bil makal fi tif7amo totally ma3 el 3amal el syesseh!!! w fik tefhamo totally did!!! ana 7atta ne2ech fhi9mto mitil el maximum did w ne2achet 3ala hal assess!!!!
- ma bi3ti2et inni jirahit ma7al bi abouna!!! bass ana 3am is2al ass2ileh!!
- bil makal abouna byizkor inno kil siyessiyeh mioch mne7 w3ala hal asses ana sa2elet, iza b2ebal yinewelon!

i wrote this for sawt el markas: what do u think?!!
اعطيت سرًا في الحركة إن اكون حرًا في المسيح، فلا تقيّدني قيود الجهل أو التقليد. كان كل شيء قابلا للبحث و التدقيق كما أورد احد الأعمدة الحركيين الأوائل.
و أنا الذي جبلت من تراب الأرض، أعطاني الله الموهبة. و المواهب هي لخدمة أبناء الأرض. أولا نقرأ جميعنا و نرددّ دينونة متى غيبًا. لا يطلب الله كلامًا فيه بل فعلًا للأرض. إذا كان الله فينا فنحن ملتزمون شؤون الأرض، شؤون إنسانها. إذا كان الله فينا كنّا رواد الفكر و الفلسفة، و رواد العلم و المعرفة، رواد الصناعة و التجارة و الزراعة، و أيضًا رواد السياسة. كل حسب موهبته.
عندما يكون الشاب الطموح و المتعلّم يحزم أمتعته راحلًا و مهاجرًا، نسأله لحظة تأمل صغيرة و نقول: أنتظر! نحن صلب هذا الوطن" نخطب فيه قائلين:" إن دورنا المسيحيّ هو بناء الوطن مستوحين قول المطران جورج خضر"يجب أن يبقى في بلاده لان الله سلّمه مسؤولية البلد الذي أوجده فيه".
نحن مسؤولون عن أوطاننا، و ليست المسؤولية حيادًا. نحن مسؤولون عن أوطاننا و بالتالي عن تكوبن الطبقة و المجتمع السيلسيّ لهذا الوطن. يقول المطران جورج خضر:"لم يكن المسيح مصلحًا اجتماعيًا أو صاحب نظام للتعايش البشري هذا شيء يقدر الناس عليه إن هم سمو بخلق كريم"
لم يعطينا اهلع النظام و بالتالي نحن مدعوون لبناء هذا النظام. فإذا كان البناة أصحاب خلق كريم فالنظام مراتهم. و إن بناه اصحاب الأطماع كان النظام بابًا لظلم و الألم، للغش و الفساد و مسكنًا لمسيحٍ موجوع و مغترب.
إذا كنا نؤمن بمسؤولينا الحركيين (و نحن طبعًا نؤمن لأننا سلمناهم المسؤوليات) كيف يجوز ان ندعوهم للخروج من عملية بناء النظام. أو تكون مسحيتنا في ان نترك مسؤولية بناء النطام لمن تدور حولهم الشبهات؟ نحن ناتمنه على اولادنا و على فكر المسيح ونمدحه امام الغريب، و في جلساتنا الخاصة نكفره و نلقي عليه اللوم و نخاف فكره السياسيّ. و إذا صدقت مخاوفكم فكيف في الأصل يعطى المسؤولية.
لو كان في الأحزاب حركييون فلن تقع حربًا في لبنان!
لو كان في الأحزاب حركييون فلن تطفئ شعلة الوطن.
فكّرت كثيرًا بالأسباب التي قد دفعت الحركة لإتخاذ قرارها (و هو ليس قرارها بل قرار قلة مجتمعة لأانه لم يبحث في الفرق و لا في الفروع)، كثرت الاحتمالات و لكن كلها كانت سطحيّة.... أعتقد ان من اتخذ القرار أقرّ أيضًا ان المسؤولين الحركيون في رأيه إذا ما انخرطوا في جماعة بنقلون فكر الجماعة بدل أن ينقلوا المسيح لتلك الجماعة، و ان مسؤولينا يتعلمون اداب أحزابهم و يتناسون اداب حركتهم. أرادوا إخفاء عورة الحركة فبانت عورتها!!! و أصبح الخوف على الحركة كبيرًا جدًا.
علمتني الحركة العودة عن الخطأ و أنا أشك باني الوحيد الذي تعلّمته.

Mich ya reit haideh 3arida li izalet tawsiyet el mou2tamar ( enno ba3rif a fina nshil tawsiet mou2tamar bi 3arida, bass ma3na el 7aki ). kent awwal we7id bemdeh ma3ak

o.k. i was thinking that we have to wrote all of us in sawt el markaz about this point. and why not we can make a 3arida but we must write a one.. can u write a one fouad and let us begin this... as fast as possible...
and also hope we all write about his issue in sawt elmarkaz

Mich,
Juste une petite remarque, au lieu de altaklid, tu pourras dire altakalid, c mieux je pense
sinon, il faut peut etre réfléchir plus, il me parait ce qu'il a été décidé dans le congrès intérieur c'est que "un responsable dans mjo ne peut pas adhérer un parti politique au liban" ton document fait de sorte que ce qu'il a été dit c'est plutot ce n'est pas permis de faire de la politique étant dans mjo...

Vu que bcp de partis politiques libanaises ne sont pas "chrétiennes" (on est d'accord sur ca?) peut on les adhérer étant chrétien?

1- Comment ne sont pas chretien?
2- "plupart" means not "all", while the decision say all!
3- merci about altaklid i will fix it
4- je crois que c'est claire que je parle sur le "mas2oul" specialement dans la derniere partie du makal...
5- je parle encore d'une autre idees, que c'est notre devoire chretien, et specialement en mjo, de participe dans les differentes part politic..

Salut "all",

I just meet Abouna Toni
Et voici ma conclusion

Abouna n'a pas dit que le mjoien ne peut pas faire de la politique, mais il ne peut pas adhérer un parti politique libanais (vu que selon lui aucun parti libanais est un parti basé sur une idéologie donné)
Ghassan Tuéni, Tarek Mitri, Michel Eddé, sont des politiciens, qui ne sont pas adhérés à aucun parti.
ce sont de bons exemples.

Ps: Micho, je voulai dire par parti chrétien un parti qui agit avec une certaine morale accepté par nous les chrétiens.

1- une intelligente phrase "selon lui", en effet Rami c'est son opinion politique sur les parties libanais il n'a pas le droit de le faire l'opinion de alharaka.
2- je refuse que tous les parties non pas une ideologie, ce n'est pas vrai totalement..... peut etre 80% but not all.
3- je crois que je peut comprendre que si un aprtiea une ideologie je peut etre part de cette partie, mais qui peut dire qu'elle sont ces parti, pourquoi abouna ne fait pas une liste noire et une liste blanche pour ces partie politique libanais (aujourd'hui tous sont noir selon lui) et la renouvelle chaque jour (peut etre demain une partie ideologie aparait et on aura finaelment une liste blanche )
4- le cas de ces personnes n'estt pas une cas ordinaire c'est le contraire ou on trouve la personalite dans le travail politique... le vraiment exemple doit etre l'exemple d'ue vie politique pleine d'idee et des programme et des partie politique.